Sharon Robinson: Exchanging the letters with Leonard Cohen

Leonard Cohen has not collaborated with many. Yet, two of his best songs, »Everybody Knows« and »Waiting For The Miracle«, were the result of his musical marriage with Sharon Robinson. Then came Ten New Songs, an entire album blending these two and their lyrical and musical genius. Their work together has been stunning. But we know little about Sharon Robinson, except what is revealed in these collaborative songs. How wonderful it would be to have an opportunity to talk with her about her work with Leonard, their musical partnership and what she has learned about and from the man. Then a twist of fate, an email address, a note to her, and Sharon’s most gracious consent to let us inside her world of music.

(c) Ivy Brooks, 2002 (Accepting Polish award for best foreign album, via satellite)

Thank you Sharon, for the really revealing talk and for the great interest you put into your responses. We appreciate it very much, and we hope to hear soon about your next projects.

And thanks to those who contributed questions.

Tom Sakic

»Dear Tom, Marie, Joe, and Jurica

Thank you for your interest in my work. I’ll try to answer some of your questions.

Sharon«

Here’s another post-monastery record from Leonard Cohen, to the joy of those people who didn’t lose their faith he’d go back to the world (following his late mother’s advice). The mysterious Sharon Robinson is also here again with him, but this time only partially – just three tracks. Why’s that? Is your musical affair with Leonard Cohen coming to an end, or will there be more collaborations, but no more »duet albums«?

I hope to always collaborate with Leonard. There are a few things on the back burner that I expect we will get back to shortly.

What do you think about Dear Heather now after the album is out and the wide responses to it have been received?

I think Dear Heather is a brilliant album. I’m kind of partial to the spoken-word tracks, »To A Teacher«, »Morning Glory«. I like the experimental quality the record has. I don’t think there’s a rule that art has to conform to a prescribed set of parameters. This album breaks several molds. I like that. Anjani’s voice is beautiful. Her work is superb. And I love »The Letters«.

Looking at the liner notes, it is interesting to note how Leonard never let you meet Anjani or vice versa. There are two pretty clear and divided parts of this record, not only in terms of singing or arranging, but also in production. Why is this so? It can seem that Leonard, after his days with Sharon Robinson, is moving out to a new period in his late career. How is it that those two tracks you co-wrote (leaving Lord Byron’s adaptation out of this) are – as was Ten New Songs – first of all, sung, and then also traditionally crafted, lyrically structured, and also involved in some recognizable Cohen cosmogony, about which he spoke in Ten New Songs interviews? The rest of this new album, let’s call it non-Sharon tracks, seem more dispersed, experimental, unfinished, spoken-cum-chanted, jazzy, improvised, etc. Some of those tracks are equally fascinating – like »Morning Glory« – but it’s amazing the difference between that song and, let’s say, »The Letters«.

Leonard had the very clear intention to try something different for Dear Heather. He talked about not wanting to be bound by the »song form«. So even though we had started on a few things in our usual fashion, he started working largely on his own, spending hours at a time at his keyboard. We’re all very used to records that are comprised of a series of »songs« with a beginning, middle and end, but Leonard was going for something else with this record.

(c) Hazel Field, 1979

Those three tracks of yours on Dear Heather, were they out-takes left after the final cut of Ten New Songs was done, but recorded originally in that period, or were they made purposely for Dear Heather? It’s hard to see them as recorded at the same time as other Dear Heather tracks; they’re so different. The three tracks I did for Dear Heather were recorded at around the same time as the others, but in a different setting. Except for some of the mixing, I for the most part produced the songs at my studio, and the others were mostly done at Leonard’s.   The album opens with the adaptation of Lord Byron’s poem »Go No More A-Roving«, with pleasant and up-beat arrangements, and very smoky and relaxed atmosphere. You aren’t credited for the music; the words are Byron’s. Is the music completely Leonard’s? What exactly were your contributions to this track?

The music for »Go No More A-Roving« was written completely by Leonard. He asked me to do an arrangement for it, so I went over, and he played it for me. We then talked about a possible feel for the arrangement. The relaxed shuffle was the direction Leonard wanted to try first. I recorded a reference cassette of him singing and playing the melody, and then went back to my studio to start on the track. This one didn’t come quickly or easily. We worked on the arrangement off and on over several months, trying different tempos and feels, taking things out and putting them back, shelving and unshelving, changing keys, looking for a certain elusive quality. Sometimes I think I’m still working on it! Finally we ended up with something very close to where we started that everyone seemed to like. Bob Sheppard’s sax was the icing on the cake on a track that we felt defied description, but just sounded good.

»The Letters«. Already heralded by many critics as the »classic Cohen« and »the best song on the album«. The duet of Leonard’s life, in my opinion. We remember your duetting on »Joan Of Arc« during the 1980 tour, and we know that you sang solo verses on Ten New Songs tracks like »Here It Is« and »Boogie Street«, but on the last two these were, after all, just the choruses. Is this the duet of your life? What do you think, who’s the addressee of this song?

I’m very happy to hear that »The Letters« is being noticed and well received. Of all the things I’ve done, it’s definitely one of my favorite. I’m always thrilled to play a part in Leonard’s work, no matter how large or small, but a duet on a song that I wrote with him is about as good as it gets. The addressee? Give it another listen.

Could you describe the process of creating this song? What did Leonard bring to you and what did you contribute?

My part in »The Letters« started with Leonard sending a finished or nearly finished lyric to me, as was the case with most of the songs on Ten New Songs. I then studied the lyric to find clues to mood, tempo and form. The rest of the process of writing this particular song is a little hard to remember, which tells me that it was one of those that falls out of the sky. Thankfully, that happens sometimes. It makes up for the ones you slave over. I did a reference vocal and we lived with it for a while. The track seemed to demand to be left alone, unadorned, allowing entry into the room, into the story. Leonard liked my vocal very much, and after experimenting with several approaches to the vocal, he decided it should be a duet.

This track has a fascinating structure. It starts as a typical Ten New Songs track, with that old and known Leonard Cohen’s strategy of acoustic first verse and introduction of all instruments from the 2nd verse (what he mostly exploited in live arrangements); the »instruments« now mostly meaning the strong, synthesized bass line. Then you come in for the joined refrain, and then your solo part comes. After the finishing verse, Leonard’s reciting the complete song, and last two lines are spoken – after the music fades out– in complete silence. (Also, it’s worth mentioning that you aren’t singing in multiple vocals on this track.) How was this stunning effect developed?

As I mentioned, we liked the spareness that we had going on »The Letters«, so there was no feeling for stacked background vocals. Leonard’s recitation at the end was an outcome of the various approaches to the vocal we had been experimenting with.

It is noted that on the last three Leonard Cohen’s records there regularly was one long, heart-breaking and melancholic song. On The Future, there was »Waiting For The Miracle«, which you co-wrote. Then there was »A Thousand Kisses Deep« on Ten New Songs, and it has been mentioned as reminiscent of your The Future contribution. It seems that »The Letters« is that type of song for this release?

I wasn’t aware of the correlation, but I suppose one could look at it that way.

You introduced one »real« instrument as the main structural motif for all of your three Dear Heather tracks, or at least that effect, thus maybe responding to some critical remarks about the previous record. On »The Letters«, there’s one prominent melancholic sound, which seems like a guitar, harpsichord or something similar, with programmed strings. What is it?

The prominent sound on »The Letters« is a guitar sample by Hans Zimmer.

The same goes for your last involvement on this release, »There For You«. That track has hypnotic rhythm, and it’s driven by strong, synthesized instrumentation similar to a mandolin or the famous oud. It’s pretty catching and not far from the »Everybody Knows« performance – namely, that 1988 song was also synthesized but driven by the real John Bilezikjian’s oud.

The stringed instruments on »There For You« are also samples of live instruments such as mandolin and oud, by Hans Zimmer and others, played on a keyboard.

How did your collaboration on Ten New Songs developed? It was reported that you actually weren’t innocent – that you came to Leonard with an actual hidden plan to get him to write songs with you. Was he still at the monastery and did you get him to leave? I know you were also involved with Zen and, I believe, Roshi. How is it that you have the same spiritual tendencies as Leonard, and how your recent full collaboration developed?

Don’t believe everything you read! I didn’t see Leonard much during the time he was at the monastery, but bumped into him in 1999 at a movie theater after he had come back. I invited him to a piano recital that my son (his God son) was playing, and it was there that he asked me to work with him on an album. It came as a total surprise. I was turned on to Zen by Leonard during a conversation we had on a plane in 1979. I subsequently met and studied with Roshi.

Since you never spoke about your collaboration with Leonard, it is presumed that he wrote all the lyrics, and that you wrote the music. Was it actually like that – it’s hard to believe he let the music totally out of his influence. Can you tell us more about the complete process? Somebody wrote that you made the complete structure of the song from his lyrics: what will be the refrain, what will be which verse. Did you actually start with his poem, and then set it to song? Did you write a single line; namely, the songs are completely credited, both music and words, to »Leonard Cohen and Sharon Robinson«?

On Ten New Songs, Leonard did write all of the lyrics, as he has on all of the songs we’ve written together. If I had any influence on the lyrics, it was only in the way in which one hears things differently when a particular person is in the room. For me, it was almost as if the words were a kind of teaching and I, or both Leonard and I, were the students. During the time we were working, the words seemed to inform and illuminate everyday life. There was an experiential quality to it, more to it than just writing songs. But the domain of the words was definitely Leonard’s. In terms of the music, I did start with a poem, find the structure, write the melody, and do the arrangements, but the way I approached it was to give Leonard concepts that he could either accept or pass on. If he didn’t think it worked, I’d go and try something else, or at times I’d present a few ideas at once. So in actuality, Leonard was really completely involved creatively in the music. I respect Leonard’s musicianship and his deep connection to his own work, so I never had the appetite to insist on anything he didn’t want. My goal here as producer was to get what he wanted in the can. As I got more used to the process for that particular record, Leonard’s voice, the overall story that was being told by the lyrics, and the tone the album was taking on, it became easier to know what was going to work and what wasn’t.

Did you discuss with Leonard matters of rhythm, major or minor key, time signature etc. prior to your musical creations? Usually after I’d spent some time with the words, I’d give Leonard some shorthand idea of what I thought might be a good direction, or if he had a specific idea, he’d let me know. Other than that, my creative choices were based on parameters that seemed to present themselves. The depth of the lyrics seemed to require an equal amount of time, so the melodies are spare, not fast or busy. These were words written during a period of deep contemplation, and seemed to require an equal measure of thoughtfulness in the music.

»Funky Chicken« (c) Greg Gold, 2001

And Leonard’s vocal range being somewhat limited, I wrote melodies that didn’t go all over the place, but had more of an internal kind of motion. It was challenging, but I think it led to some of my best work.

In the 1997 documentary Spring 96, we saw Leonard singing the first version of »A Thousand Kisses Deep«. Only the head line survived in the 2001 version. That version was an excellent love song with very good melody, but its words weren’t appropriate to your version of music, because with the new melody it became pretty transcendental song. We know that there was Leonard’s version of »In My Secret Life« also, and he discarded both because he »loved your version best«. What happened to those tracks?

I’m not really familiar with earlier versions of these songs.

Were any other of the numerous verses of »A Thousand Kisses Deep« recorded? Leonard mentioned once that the discarded verses may be resurrected for other projects. Do he or you continue to work on them?

Yes, we are working with those verses for a future project.

It has been reported that you planned to replace your programming and multiple vocals with instruments and back up vocalists, namely, that the released Ten New Songs were actually demo versions you made for Leonard? So, he decided to go on with the working version? What is your opinion on that, especially regarding the fact that there are some fans who weren’t happy with such arrangements? How did it come about that basically the same method was used on the new tracks? Namely, I see it as the core of Leonard’s style – from acoustic ascetic of guitars to acoustic-electronic ascetic of computers.

The arrangements on Ten New Songs did start out as my demos. But once the decision was made not to go with live players, the arrangements were worked on quite extensively, fleshing them out and making them, finally, anything but demos. Leonard has said that he’s prepared to »defend every note« as a choice made consistent with an overall idea. That idea being a certain controlled sound that he felt worked with the material, contrasting and framing his voice, and giving the record a unique sound. Whether you have a musician playing an instrument, or a musician playing a sample of an instrument, you still have music. I would say that at the point in time that these recordings were made, these were deliberate choices made by the artist, and they cannot really be argued with.

Do you think about Leonard’s voice ability while writing the music?

You must consider the style and facility of the artist for whom you’re writing. As I said earlier, the limitations of Leonard’s range forced me to write melodies that I think through their simplicity, achieve a certain comforting clarity and helped to define the character of the record. In that sense, I think a limitation became a strength. I’m sure there’s an old Eastern proverb for that somewhere.

You do a beautiful duet with Leonard on »Alexandra Leaving«, one of Leonard’s most poignant songs. Do you have to coax Leonard to sing more? On Dear Heather, how did it come about that he actually sings only on your tracks?

Thank you for your words about »Alexandra Leaving«, definitely one of my favorites. I believe that the reason Leonard is singing more on the tracks I did with him is because they were among the first to be recorded for Dear Heather. I think it was after that that he decided to take a less structured approach to the album.

We heard from Leonard that Ten New Songs was recorded in his garage. Can you tell us something more?

Yes, we both have studios in our garages. It’s a great way to work. There is a lot of freedom in being able to lay down an idea at any time, or work as much or as little on a given day as is productive.

Where’s your production home and where were those three Dear Heather tracks made? Did you ever join the sessions for other new tracks?

My studio, Small Mercies Studio, is at my home in the Hollywood hills. I produced those three songs in very much the same manner as I did the songs on Ten New Songs, except I think we did some of the lead vocals at my studio instead of at Leonard’s. My only involvement with the other songs on Dear Heather was in helping Leonard and Leanne in the mastering sessions as a third pair of ears.

Can you say something about technology? Did you use synthesizers, or something more recent, like Pro Tools software?

I tend to use samples of live instruments, software based synths, hardware samplers, and, yes, Pro Tools. I often play the parts direct in, and I also play percussion.

Do you ever think about commercial or critical response to the songs? Namely, your arrangements were surely a big help in making Ten New Songs so successful in many European countries. Also, the first response of some Central European radio stations reports that mostly your tracks on Dear Heather are getting airplay time. Is »radio friendly« your musical politics?

The radio honestly never crosses my mind when I’m working on something for Leonard. But if my melodies and Leonard’s words and voice should combine to the liking of radio, I couldn’t be happier.

What is your favourite song on Ten New Songs and why?

I don’t know if I can really pick a favorite song on Ten New Songs. Lyrically, I’m probably most moved by »A Thousand Kisses Deep«, »Love Itself«, and »Alexandra Leaving«. I also like those songs for their melodies. I like »Here It Is« and »By The Rivers Dark« for their haunting and hypnotic qualities. It’s hard to say, because although I think each song stands on its own, they also work together as a whole, polishing each other like stones, to use Leonard’s analogy.

What song was the most difficult or took the longest and why?

The most time consuming song was probably »By The Rivers Dark«. It started out as a completely different song and, over a long period of time, finally morphed into what it is now. It was like a three-month lesson: if it isn’t right, it isn’t right, and you can’t pretend that it is. My Zen training was really helpful right about then.

It has been reported that you were introduced to Leonard’s band in 1979 by Jennifer Warnes. But how did you meet her and how were you actually introduced to the musical business at all?

I think Jennifer got my name from another session singer that we had both worked with. Except for a couple of short-lived »day jobs«, I’ve always made my living in music.

How old were you when you met Leonard, and can you tell us something about your first days and that tour of 1979?

I consider being hired for the Field Commander tour to be one of the best things that’s ever happened to me. Mostly because of the music. The whole experience was magical. Being on stage in beautiful halls, performing »The Guests« and »Hey, That’s No Way To Say Goodbye« with brilliant musicians and a rapt audience. Leonard’s words. Jenny’s unbelievable voice. And the icing on the cake for me: after intermission, listening from offstage as Leonard went out by himself to do »The Stranger Song«. As you can tell, the experience resonates with me still. It was great being part of that tour.

Were you familiar with Leonard’s work – as a writer or musician – by that time?

Before I worked with him, I was, like many Americans, really only familiar with Leonard’s more famous songs.

In 1980 Leonard went out to tour again with the same musicians. Jennifer Warnes dropped out. How did that go, especially regarding the fact that you were left as the only back up singer?

I’m not sure why Leonard decided not to replace Jenny, but in the end it worked out pretty well because Roscoe Beck (bass) and Mitch Watkins (guitar) sang with me on the songs that really needed the additional parts, and I think they did a great job.

»Summertime«, you wrote on your site it’s actually the first track you wrote with Leonard. When was it started and finished? Was it never meant to be sung by Leonard? It sounds like a song for a woman to sing; it’s very hard to imagine Leonard singing it.

I’d had the melody for »Summertime« for some time, but hadn’t found the lyric. I remember being in a hotel lobby waiting for the tour bus with the rest of the gang, and noticing a grand piano. I started playing the song and Leonard came over, walked around the piano several times listening to the melody, and wrote the body of the words in a few minutes. It was great fun.

It was reported that Jennifer Warnes performed an early version of »Waiting For The Miracle« in 1988, maybe even recorded it for her Famous Blue Raincoat album. You co-wrote the song, at least the 1992 version. What can you tell us about that, when was the song started and finished, what’s about Warnes’ version? There was an 1985 out-take also! When did you become involved?

I wrote »Waiting For The Miracle« with Leonard I think in about 1985. I’d have to look through my notebooks to tell you exactly. I made a demo of the song with Roscoe Beck playing incredible blues guitar. I seem to recall that Jennifer was going to record it for Famous Blue Raincoat, or did, but didn’t use it. It was sent out at times by my publisher, and was put on hold at different times by Stevie Ray Vaughn and Robert Cray, but not recorded until Leonard cut it for The Future.

Are you curious about the meaning of the songs, such as »Everybody Knows«? Do you question Leonard about the meaning of his songs and how forthcoming is he in answering? Is it actually vital to your work to understand the song completely?

It is vitally important to understand the meaning of the songs when writing the music. I don’t really like asking what the words mean because the whole point is for the words to speak for themselves. So I arrive at it by studying them on my own and by whatever basic understanding I have of Leonard and his work. Of course, the meaning gradually deepens as you work on the song, and makes its appearance in everyday life as you become steeped in the process. Sometimes Leonard will volunteer an explanation and just start riffing on the idea of the song, which makes me wish I could put that moment in a bottle.

Why didn’t you sing with Leonard before Ten New Songs, on »Everybody Knows« or »Waiting For The Miracle«?

Even though I was writing with Leonard, I wasn’t part of his band at the time.

In the end, who actually is Sharon Robinson? We know you’re a Grammy winner, but there’s almost no other information about you, not even when you were born? How were you raised and educated?

I was born in San Francisco, California. My parents were real estate and restaurant entrepreneurs. We moved to Los Angeles when I was quite young and I grew up here, interestingly, about a block from Leonard’s L.A. home. I studied classical piano from the age of 6, became fairly accomplished at it, started writing and recording songs at age 12, worked after school at the parents’ restaurants (the radio was always on), was a national merit finalist, attended a small college in West Virginia for three years as a liberal arts major, auditioned and got into California Institute of the Arts where I studied for only a year as the need to make a living prevailed. The real musical education began when I started singing and playing piano in bands, night after night on the road, covering songs by all of the great recording artists of our time. I relied on my ears a lot, but the formal training was invaluable for »reading« at sessions, writing, and arranging.

What were your musical influences in the beginning? What about now, except – I guess – Leonard Cohen? You’ve actually been cathegorized by AllMusic.com as »gospel« and »urban soul«.

I haven’t seen the reference, but I think there is some confusion at AllMusic with another singer of the same name, because I haven’t done much gospel work. I guess you could say I’ve had a very wide range of influences musically, from Classical to Soul and R and B, from Folk to Jazz.

Recently you worked with less known (at least in Europe) Columbia artist Chris Botti. You even wrote two new songs for his album A Thousand Kisses Deep. Was it different than before, with your new experience with Ten New Songs?

It was fun writing for a jazz artist. I was able to draw from something that I know is there, but I hardly ever get to use.

What’s Sharon Robinson doing when she’s not producing Leonard Cohen songs?

I am currently writing and producing my own first album, which will include two of the songs I wrote with Leonard, »Summertime« and »Everybody Knows«.

What’s coming next? As Perla Batalla said when she released her first solo record: Where can you go after Leonard Cohen?

There are a number of very interesting things on the horizon.  I’ll keep you posted at my website at www.sharonrobinson.net.

This interview has been conducted via e-mails in November 2004.

Connect to:

www.sharonrobinson.net

www.leonardcohencroatia.com

www.dearheather.com

www.10newsongs.com

Speaking Cohen